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楼主: 乱剑狂刀

一个由“外来政权”创造的历史奇迹

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发表于 2010-1-2 03:57 | 显示全部楼层
那反清复明的活动还一直持续到民国建立呢。如此长久持续的复兴前朝的活动,可见当时底层百姓对辫子朝统治者从不抱希望。至于藩属国一心要复兴前朝,用前朝年号用到两百六十五年,这真是前无古人,估计也要后无来者了。另外,被辫子攻入的是大顺,不是明朝。

洪武之治:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E ... 6%E4%B9%8B%E6%B2%BB
永乐盛世:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E ... 0%E7%9B%9B%E4%B8%96
仁宣之治:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E ... 3%E4%B9%8B%E6%B2%BB
我说了,你没听说过不代表不存在。

康乾盛世是“在中国封建史上比较突出的盛世”?那它究竟突出在何处呢?你能说的出来么?

For it would now seem that the policy and vanity of the Court equally concurred in endeavouring to keep out of sight whatever can manifest our pre-eminence, which they undoubtedly feel, but have not yet learned to make the proper use of. It is, however, in vain to attempt arresting the progress of human knowledge.

I am, indeed, very much mistaken if all the authority and address of the Tartar Government will be able much longer to stifle the energies of their Chinese subjects. Scarcely a year now passes without an insurrection in some of their provinces. it is true they are soon suppressed, but their frequency is a strong symptom of the fever within. The paroxysm is repelled, but the disease is not cured.

The Empire of China is an old, crazy, first-rate Man of War, which a fortunate succession of and vigilant officers have contrived to keep afloat for these hundred and fifty years past, and to overawe their neiours merely by her bulk and appearance. But whenever an insufficient man happens to have the command on deck, adieu to the discipline and safety of the ship. She may, perhaps, not sink outright; she may drift some time as a wreck, and will then be dashed to pieces on the shore; but she can never be rebuilt on the old bottom.

The breaking-up of the power of China (no very improbable event) would occasion a complete subversion of the commerce, not only of Asia, but a very sensible change in the other quarters of the world. The industry and the ingenuity of the Chinese would be checked and enfeebled, but they would not be annihilated. Her ports would no longer be barricaded; they would be attempted by all the adventures of all trading nations, who would search every channel, creek, and cranny of China for a market, and for some time be the cause of much rivalry and disorder. Nevertheless, as Great Britain, from the weight of her riches and the genius and spirits of her people, is become the first political, marine, and commercial Power on the globe, it is reasonable to think that she would prove the greatest gainer by such a revolution as I have alluded to, and rise superior over every competitor.

It should be never absent from our recollection that there are now two distinct nations in China--the Chinese and the Tartars--whose characters essentially differ, notwithstanding their external appearance be nearly the same. They are both subject to the most absolute authority that can be vested in a Prince(Qianlong), but with this distinction--that to the Chinese it is a foreign tyranny, to the Tartar a domestic despotism. The latter consider themselves as in some degree partakers of their Sovereign's dominions over the former, and that imagination may, perhaps, somewhat console them under the pressure of his power upon themselves--like the house servants and house negroes belonging to a great landlord in Livonia or planter in Jamaica, who, though serfs themselves, look down upon the peasantry and field negroes as much their inferiors.

ON MARCO POLO:
If opinions were solely to be formed of China and its inhabitants from the accounts of the first travellers and even of the later missionaries, they would often be inadequate or unjust. For those writers, although they probably did not mean to deal in fiction, yet, when they do tell the truth, they do not always tell the truth, which is a mode of narration that leads to error almost as much as falsehood itself. When Marco Polo, the Venetian, visited China in the thirteenth century, it was about the time of the conquest of China by the Mongol Tartars, with Kublai khan at their head. A little before that period the Chinese had reached their pitch of civilization; but not having improved, or having rather gone back, at least, for these hundred and fifty years past, whilst we have been rising in arts and sciences, they are actually becoming a semibarbarous people in comparison with the present nations of Europe.

The Government, as it stands, is properly the tyranny of a handful of Tatars over more than three hundred millions of Chinese.

yet it cannot be concealed that the nation in general is far from being contented. The frequent insurrections in the distant provinces are ambiguous oracles of the real sentiments of the people. The predominance of the Tartars and the Emperors's partiality for them are the common subjects of conversation among the Chinese whenever they meet together in private. There are certain mysterious societies in every province, who, though narrowly watched by the Government, find means to elude its vigilance, and often hold secret assemblies, where they revive the memory of ancient independence, brood over recent injuries, and meditate revenge.

以上都节选自乔治·马戛尔尼出使乾隆年间的辫子朝时的日记。辫子朝相对于大明的倒退不只是我的看法,也是当时西方人的看法。
发表于 2010-1-2 06:55 | 显示全部楼层
1、反清复明并不能作为清朝是明朝倒退的理由。首先,反清复明的只是百姓中的极少数份子,并不是百姓的普遍愿望。老百姓盼望的是能安居乐业,谁做统治者还在其次。其次,有恐怖份子、某些国家反对美国的,也有极少数份子反对天朝的,这可以作为倒退的理由吗?

2、辫子入山海关,是镇守山海关的明末将领吴三桂开的城门;另外,让整个明朝覆亡的,是满清,而不是李自成的大顺朝。

3、你说的洪武、永乐、仁宣,我在帖子里都说过,并非不知道。然后,我指的盛世是历史上几个比较大的、长期的盛世,毕竟康乾盛世延续了近百年左右。再退一步说,即使所谓的盛世成立,也并不能作为清朝是明朝倒退的理由。

4、至于《马戛尔尼航行中国记》,里面也有称赞中国是“卓绝人寰”、“最为雄伟”的上国。其次,该人出使清朝是在公元1793年,即乾隆五十八年,此时的清朝已经开始由盛转衰(白莲教都起义了)。最后,他并非中国人,就算他了解清朝(这个还不一定),也不一定了解明朝。
综合起来,他的文章也只可参考,并不能作为定论。

另外,鉴于清朝在你心中的不良印象太深,我不想再争论下去了,没意义。

很高兴和你讨论。
发表于 2010-1-2 15:47 | 显示全部楼层
1、
I am, indeed, very much mistaken if all the authority and address of the Tartar Government will be able much longer to stifle the energies of their Chinese subjects. Scarcely a year now passes without an insurrection in some of their provinces. it is true they are soon suppressed, but their frequency is a strong symptom of the fever within. The paroxysm is repelled, but the disease is not cured.

yet it cannot be concealed that the nation in general is far from being contented. The frequent insurrections in the distant provinces are ambiguous oracles of the real sentiments of the people. The predominance of the Tartars and the Emperors's partiality for them are the common subjects of conversation among the Chinese whenever they meet together in private. There are certain mysterious societies in every province, who, though narrowly watched by the Government, find means to elude its vigilance, and often hold secret assemblies, where they revive the memory of ancient independence, brood over recent injuries, and meditate revenge.

反清复明的的不仅是极少数份子。我不知道你是怎么知道辫子朝年间的百姓都是安居乐业的,也不明白一个“四大皆空”的“盛世”下,百姓怎么安居乐业,或是一个百姓安居乐业的盛世下,为什么会“四大皆空”?

2、吴三桂开关时,明已亡,吴当时充其量是拥兵自重的一支武装力量而已。攻入北京城,灭亡大明的也是大顺,与辫子何干?

3、什么样的盛世是大盛世?什么样的盛世是小盛世?这玩意是怎么量化的?所谓的"康乾盛世"是不是真的在这一点上独步天下?要按时间长短算,从洪武到宣德也是近百年了。确实单单的盛世不能作为清朝是明朝倒退的理由,所以我们要有一个标准来量化並比较这两个盛世。既然你说康乾盛世是大盛世,洪武、永乐、仁宣都不算盛世,那麽想必你是已经有一个标准的了。那你是以什么标准来比较和判断它们的呢?

4、我引用的是马戛尔尼出使中国时日记,不是《马戛尔尼航行中国记》。《马戛尔尼航行中国记》为安德森所著,並不代表马戛尔尼本人的看法。即使马戛尔尼再不了解中国,作为经历过当时的辫子朝的人也总比我俩更加了解。

5、你虽然说清朝比明朝是进步。但是除了清朝有“盛世”,明朝没有以外,似乎没有给出任何其他的证据以证明你的观点。
发表于 2010-1-2 19:21 | 显示全部楼层
我说了,不想再争论下去,咱们谁也说服不了谁。各自保留自己的观点。

相较永乐朝的出使西洋,乾隆朝的闭关锁国、盲目自大(康熙朝没有),这一点确实是退步了

[ 本帖最后由 血刀 于 2010-1-2 19:48 编辑 ]
 楼主| 发表于 2010-1-5 20:36 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 血刀 于 2009-12-29 15:27 发表
此楼直接忽略。

相对整体素质偏低的明朝皇帝,清朝皇帝要好的多。


得了吧,满清能够拿出手的也就最开始几个
后面的一个不如一个

从真正统一之后,对外一直退让
也就不要提满人津津乐道的狗屁《尼布楚条约》了
所谓的盛世居然割地求和,真是伟大啊!
发表于 2010-4-7 16:55 | 显示全部楼层
历史的对错,是个十分纠结的问题。
纠结之处不在于曾经发生的事实,而是现代人看待历史的心态一直在变。
黄世仁要杨白劳拿喜儿抵债,如果当时法律上允许买卖人口,欠债还钱天经地义,从法治社会的角度来看黄世仁没有错。
一句很有名的话:风未动,烛未动,是人的心在动。
朝代如何灭亡,肯定不是某一个原因可以造成的,毕竟即使是古代的国家机器运作起来也是有稳定性的。
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